Jewel issue for pocket watch

[willofiam]

Hello, I have a model 1883 18s 7j pocket watch that is my own, I would probably save it for parts but I have put so much into this one I am determined to get it up and running. the lower balance jewel is totally shot, I have a jewel in a setting from parts I have in stock that will work although the jewel hole is a smidge smaller than the balance pivot and the brass housing (chanton?) is just a bit thicker on the ledge that it seats on than the original, I know I will have to check endshake and will do that throughout the process. What I am thinking is to lathe the brass to the right thicknesses which appears will work fine, Mostly I am wondering if there is a way to open the jewel hole possibly by broaching??? or should I reduce the balance staff pivot diameter with a burnisher on the jacot tool, thank you all and have a terrific day, William

[Arutha]

Hi Will,
Rather than trying to make something fit which can cause more problems than it solves, try and find the correct jewel, it might take a while but the watch aint going anywhere i think diamond powder is the only thing that will cut the jewel, that has to be imbedded into something the right size to cut the hole bigger. It can be done but not to easy to get a good result. You could turn down the pivot but then they were made that size for a reason. If you can find a way to get me some dimensions i might be able to find one for you
Paul.

[willofiam]

Hey Paul, thank you, It almost looks like it is rubbed in, but it is very different than others I have seen, I do have some jewels and now that I think about your response I have to agree (your the best by the way). If it doesn't work out with a new jewel I do have other options. you are right about the staff pivot (if possible DO NOT remove material) although it looks like a very very small amount would do the trick I may end up opening a can of worms, which reminds me, fishing is just around the corner. William

[Arutha]

After doing the two swiss cylinder movements it taught me a very important lesson about swapping parts. You dont always realise the consequences straight away. I swapped an endstone on the balance with its small round plate and lever. I never noticed on the lever that the end was shorter and the boot was not quite deep enough. This resulted in squashing the hairspring up on one side. Could i then find the original lever? In a word no! My mentor teaches me to repair what i have, as soon as you start changing things you are moving the watch further away from its original running condition and this can cause more problems than you think you are solving. Obviously things like jewels and mainsprings can be changed but they must be the correct dimensions.
Looking forward to fishing with you one day

[willofiam]

O.K. what a day , learned how to rub in a new jewel today, I found a loose jewel that was exactly what I needed, rubbed out the old one and rubbed in the new, I tell yah, it takes some patients , I think I spent more than half the time rolling around on the floor looking for parts , jewels are hard to hold onto, then I remembered Bobs advice somewhere to use spit, low and behold it works for jewels, a little spit on the end of a pegwood and wallah .....put the balance in and tested the end-shake = perceptible and side-shake = less than 5degrees, balance runs smoothly, sorry guys I just get all excited when I learn a new thing , William

[Arutha]

Well done William,
its always great to learn something new. Some of those jewels are alive!
I think you should post up some pictures now and explain to us who how to work with rubbed in jewels
Paul.

[willofiam]

Good idea Paul, See chapter 19 in Donald de Carles "practicle watch repairing" book, William

[Arutha]

I dont have DeCarles book, can you post up a video instead
I have done a couple now but one thing i will say about rubbing in jewels is the size can be quite critical, it must fit right otherwise you will have the devils own job of trying to get it to stay in and not move. I speak from experience, or rather lack of it
Paul.

[tmac1956]

I just took apart a Waltham 18s 1883 for servicing and found that someone put in a new jewel without a brass fitting, took something like a small screw driver and chisled/moved metal from the plate out over the jewel in order to apparently hold it in place! Now, I guess I'll need to remove the thing and see if there's enough plate thicknes left to put in a fitted jewel. If not, then I guess I will need to ream/drill out the hole and cutom fit a brass fitiing/jewel into the hole.

Any ideas? Has anyone ever seen this before?

tmac

[Arutha]

As you go through these watches Tmac you will see all sorts of weird and wonderful things people have done to try and get them to work. You are quite correct about how to effect a proper repair. Take measurements from two opposing holes so you dont lose the hole centre, drill out all the bad metal and plug it, then drill a hole the correct size. Do you know what type of jewel fitting used to be there? This is where my knowledge comes to an end as if it was a rubbed in jewel I am not sure how you would re-create that type of setting.
Maybe someone else on here knows?

[willofiam]

tmac, I may not be much help here but I have in the past bought on ebay a lot of 16s elgin parts, $20.00 had several plates, winding parts, balances, hairsprings, screws ect, ect. seemed like they were from a guy who had put the pile together from years of service. I was able to use a jewel setting from one of the plates to fix the elgin I was working on, and now I have a bunch of parts for the future. may be an idea to see if you can find something like this and scrounge a setting or at least see one that hasnt been mucked up. William

[tmac1956]

Ok... I looked at it a bit closer and now I think it's jsut a botched rubbed in job. I might be able to go over it with a rubbing burnisher (If my staking set has one) an just live with it, probably not. If I don't fix it, I won't be able to sleep at night. I need to buy a microscope and now I can justify the cost.

Thanks for all of the input.
tmac

[willofiam]

Hey Tmac The microscope is great for looking At everything. But I had a hard time trying to work on the jewel setting Using the microscope. If you had some sort of a jewel setting holder tool, Or if you can leave it in the plate and still see Then doing the work would be much easier with the microscope, Just my thoughts, Have a Fantastic day, William

[david pierce]

William, Tmac,
For those of us who no longer have a young man's eyes the microscope is a godsend. I bought an AMSCOPE a few years ago and have been very pleased with it. There are also systems that plug into a computer, blowing the image up on your screen, but I have not checked them out; they might be very good. I am sure some of the other members have these and perhaps they will post a comment on the forum. In any case it was a real shock to look at a beautifully crafted watch movement under this level of magnification. The only watch parts that still had a high precision look were the jewels.
david

[tmac1956]

Here's a look at the the dinged-up pallet fork jewel job...

BadJewel.JPG (29.31 KiB) Viewed 11923 times

[willofiam]

hey tmac1956, what do you think the previous smith was trying to accomplish? hold the jewel or the setting, or did he put in a different setting with jewel and try to hold it in place? William

[tmac1956]

[willofiam]

hey tmac1956. I hear you when you say your having a learning experience, the first 3 pocket watches I have done have needed just about everything, keep your chin up because when your done and it is finally running how great a feeling and you will have stories to tell!!! It is a great learning experience and I wait patiently for one that just needs a cleaning.... remember that once you remove material its pretty hard to put it back on, I hope someone with more knowledge than I can chime in here but my thought is to try and "push" or "rub" open the part of the setting that holds the jewel, that is the concept of rubbing them in and out, there is a certain tool you can use but you can also make something that will work, but I am wondering if there is anything wrong with the jewel itself, if not then possibly you can clean up the area surrounding it, check the end-shake first to see if it is set in right because in the pics it looks at a different depth than the jewel next to it, just a thought. you may be able to find a parts movement and use a part from it, still might have a issue with it not fitting properly in the plate but you may be able to do something nicer than what has already happened, have fun< William

[tmac1956]

[derekas]

The problem I have is getting the correct settings for the anchor pallet jewels. Has anyone got a base setting I could try. Unfortunately the jewels are not a tight enough fit to play with without shellac on them first. It is driving me potty as every setting adjustment is a long process. I have read that the angle should be 2deg. but how to I measure that?